Hi all,

I'm new to this certification stuff.  I've been working for about 5 years as a systems admin.  I have experience in deploying and administering Windows 2000 Pro, Windows 2000 Server, Red Hat Linux, Cisco switches, and SuSE Linux.  I've been able to get a jobs based off of the experience alone that I have but I'm learning that will only get you so far.  I've been debating whether or not to even invest in getting an MCSE.  I have looked for jobs online lately and some jobs require you to have a CIS degree.  Now sometimes it seems to me that a bachelors degree for systems administration seems silly because the CIS programs that I've seen center around programming and computing concepts, not so much networking and security and OS management.  My questions are: Is getting an MCSE worth it?  Do you really need an MCSE to get good sys admin jobs?  Also, from your experience, do you really need a Bachelors in CIS to get good sys admin jobs?  Anyone in the forum an IT manager and do you have a bachelors or just experience and certifications?  What kind of credentials do some of the people above you have?  Do any sysadmins in this forum have Linux certifications?  Is it worth it to get Linux certifications also?  I've been looking into Security+ certification since it does count as 1 elective credit for MCSE?  Anybody have any thoughts or experience with Security+?  WRT to salary, I know people may not want to reveal salary info, but do MCSEs without bachelors degrees make decent money ($50k+)?  

Sorry for all the questions, thanks for any input on the subject.  I'm interested to hear what people's experiences are in the job market.

I don't have a degree but have been an MCSE for 8 years.  I have made a lot

more money than 50K as a system admin and as MIS manager.  Currently I am

working as a programmer (and still no degree) and still making a lot more

than 50K.



As a system admin, you need the MCSE much more than a developer would need

to be an MCSD, but you also need the degree.  It will be hard, though not

impossible, in today's market to get an interview without a degree...There

are too many people getting IT degrees and too few jobs.  The competition

will almost all have degrees.  My last job search was very tough.  While

getting interviews was almost impossible, every interview I did get that was

for a real job (as in not with a headhunter) landed me a good offer.



If you have experience, good interviewing skills, and are an MCSE, you'll

get jobs easily once you can get the interview.  To get the interview, the

thing that will help most is a combination of the two: degree and MCSE.



Having neither, you're probably very fortunate to have a good system admin

job.  Hang on to it as long as you can but start preparing.  The day will

probably come when you'll have to compete with degreed MCSE's for your next

job.



Dale







"ludwigs3rd" <ludwigs3rd.13uy2b@mail.mcse.ms> wrote in message

news:ludwigs3rd.13uy2b@mail.mcse.ms...

>

> Hi all,

> I'm new to this certification stuff.  I've been working for about 5

> years as a systems admin.  I have experience in deploying and

> administering Windows 2000 Pro, Windows 2000 Server, Red Hat Linux,

> Cisco switches, and SuSE Linux.  I've been able to get a jobs based off

> of the experience alone that I have but I'm learning that will only get

> you so far.  I've been debating whether or not to even invest in

> getting an MCSE.  I have looked for jobs online lately and some jobs

> require you to have a CIS degree.  Now sometimes it seems to me that a

> bachelors degree for systems administration seems silly because the CIS

> programs that I've seen center around programming and computing

> concepts, not so much networking and security and OS management.  My

> questions are: Is getting an MCSE worth it?  Do you really need an MCSE

> to get good sys admin jobs?  Also, from your experience, do you really

> need a Bachelors in CIS to get good sys admin jobs?  Anyone in the

> forum an IT manager and do you have a bachelors or just experience and

> certifications?  What kind of credentials do some of the people above

> you have?  Do any sysadmins in this forum have Linux certifications?

> Is it worth it to get Linux certifications also?  I've been looking

> into Security+ certification since it does count as 1 elective credit

> for MCSE?  Anybody have any thoughts or experience with Security+?  WRT

> to salary, I know people may not want to reveal salary info, but do

> MCSEs without bachelors degrees make decent money ($50k+)?

> Sorry for all the questions, thanks for any input on the subject.  I'm

> interested to hear what people's experiences are in the job market.

>

>

>

> --

> ludwigs3rd

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Posted via http://www.mcse.ms

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> View this thread: http://www.mcse.ms/message517391.html

>

I have niether a degree or a cert. but, I do have alot of

experience in both supporting IT and managemaent.

I have just aquired a job as a network engineer for a

IT solution provider for small and medium businesses,

The pay is just under 50k due to me not having a Cert.

I was told if I had my Certifications it would be more

important then having a degree and I would have been

offered 50k.

I was offered the job but on the condition I get my MCSA

within 1 year and I will get a $2000. bonus upon

completion. My salary will also go up. With the MCSE and

the CCNA that I will get next year, I will also get

bonuses and Increases in pay. Now this has been fairly

standard with what I've been running into. 1 more point...

They will not pay for classes or study material but they

will re-imburse me for the costs of tests I pass.

YES, I would deffinately say Cert.'s are the way to go

and not to be ignored as I had done.



Kris











>-----Original Message-----

>I don't have a degree but have been an MCSE for 8

years.  I have made a lot

>more money than 50K as a system admin and as MIS

manager.  Currently I am

>working as a programmer (and still no degree) and still

making a lot more

>than 50K.

>

>As a system admin, you need the MCSE much more than a

developer would need

>to be an MCSD, but you also need the degree.  It will be

hard, though not

>impossible, in today's market to get an interview

without a degree...There

>are too many people getting IT degrees and too few

jobs.  The competition

>will almost all have degrees.  My last job search was

very tough.  While

>getting interviews was almost impossible, every

interview I did get that was

>for a real job (as in not with a headhunter) landed me a

good offer.

>

>If you have experience, good interviewing skills, and

are an MCSE, you'll

>get jobs easily once you can get the interview.  To get

the interview, the

>thing that will help most is a combination of the two:

degree and MCSE.

>

>Having neither, you're probably very fortunate to have a

good system admin

>job.  Hang on to it as long as you can but start

preparing.  The day will

>probably come when you'll have to compete with degreed

MCSE's for your next

>job.

>

>Dale

>

>

>

>"ludwigs3rd" <ludwigs3rd.13uy2b@mail.mcse.ms> wrote in

message[color=blue]

>news:ludwigs3rd.13uy2b@mail.mcse.ms... 

working for about 5[color=blue] 

deploying and[color=blue] 

Red Hat Linux,[color=blue] 

a jobs based off[color=blue] 

that will only get[color=blue] 

invest in[color=blue] 

and some jobs[color=blue] 

seems to me that a[color=blue] 

silly because the CIS[color=blue] 

computing[color=blue] 

management.  My[color=blue] 

really need an MCSE[color=blue] 

experience, do you really[color=blue] 

Anyone in the[color=blue] 

just experience and[color=blue] 

the people above[color=blue] 

certifications?[color=blue] 

been looking[color=blue] 

elective credit[color=blue] 

with Security+?  WRT[color=blue] 

info, but do[color=blue] 

($50k+)?[color=blue] 

the subject.  I'm[color=blue] 

the job market.[color=blue] 

-----------------[color=blue] 

----------------- 

>

>

>.

>

my take on all this stuff.



no. you don't need a degree to be in this IT industury.

just like you don't need an MCSE to be a help desk dummie supporting

people on the phone.



but - your problem along with every other twat applying for jobs in IT is

that you are thinking like selfish buttheads that you all are. all you

are thinking about is me,me,me,me.



you are not thinking, jeez, i wonder what the other guy who is applying

for the same job has?



it's a $hit job market right now. a great many people in IT without jobs

applying for a limited number of jobs. the employers can pick and choose

to their hearts desire. so if they feel like they want an MCSE to get

them coffee and sweep toilets, they can demand it and get away with it.



now, if candidate A has no degree and and candidate B has a degree. guess

which one they will call on the phone to come in for an interview? it has

nothing to do with what you will do on the job.



the reason you are going to want to decide if you seriously should

consider a degree, is because in the long run, without a degree you will

never rise above being a $hitty system admin. doesn't matter if you have

10 CCIE's. they will only let you configure their routers. thats it!. for

any upper level decision making role, the employer is  going to prefer

someone with a degree. hence why so many MBA's in IT.



that said. you can always believe in good luck and "who you blow" to get

you through life. :-)





--

Rowdy Yates

-------------------------------

Death to the Gypsy Kings!

-------------------------------

I am Against-TCPA

http://www.againsttcpa.com

>I was offered the job but on the condition I get my MCSA

>within 1 year and I will get a $2000. bonus upon

>completion. My salary will also go up. With the MCSE and

>the CCNA that I will get next year, I will also get

>bonuses and Increases in pay.



Go for it. Don't see many companies prepared to give handouts for

certs these days!



Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

>If you have experience, good interviewing skills, and are an MCSE, you'll

>get jobs easily once you can get the interview.



... and that's the hardest part. I saw letter a while back  in the

computer press in the uk, about some guy who had 15+ years experience

in IT, numerous certs, BSc who had been out of work for a year without

a single interview. According to his story, he applied for one job the

day it was advertised, and was told he would not be considered because

the company had already received over thousand applications!



>To get the interview, the

>thing that will help most is a combination of the two: degree and MCSE.



No; as you said before it's experience. A degree gives you a good

chance of getting into the profession. Once you're in, you then look

to better yourself, and that's down to gaining experience, not just

technical experience but experience in business sectors, you should

understand that if your a 'programmer'.



Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

>My

>questions are: Is getting an MCSE worth it?



Yes.



>Do you really need an MCSE

>to get good sys admin jobs?



No.



>Also, from your experience, do you really

>need a Bachelors in CIS to get good sys admin jobs?



Yes. Helps you get into the profession.



> Anyone in the

>forum an IT manager and do you have a bachelors or just experience and

>certifications?



Both.



> What kind of credentials do some of the people above

>you have?



Good at doing their job??



>Do any sysadmins in this forum have Linux certifications?



Yes (not me though).



>Is it worth it to get Linux certifications also?



Yes.



>I know people may not want to reveal salary info, but do

>MCSEs without bachelors degrees make decent money ($50k+)?



A degree means nothing once you've got several years experience. If I

was paid less for not having a degree than someone who had a degree,

I'd leave. Any company that does not reward people on ability and

worth to the company alone, deserves to lose their best people.



Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Industry certification has always been important in sysadmin jobs because

you're working for people who don't know what you do for a living as opposed

to programming where you are generally working for *smart* people.

A computer science degree is almost mandatory these days for a programmer

and a lot of senior sysadmin/analyst jobs request it also, although

generally it is just HR bullshit trying to lower the number of applicants so

ANY degree with the word "Computing" in it will qualify you (unfortunately.)

The people who "talk down" certification are generally those who don't have

it and are unable to cut it in this field anymore.

IT has always been an academic profession, anyone who can't keep up with a

fairly constant (and endless) study regime best learn this phrase:

"Would you like fries with that, Sir?"



"ludwigs3rd" <ludwigs3rd.13uy2b@mail.mcse.ms> wrote in message

news:ludwigs3rd.13uy2b@mail.mcse.ms...

>

> Hi all,

> I'm new to this certification stuff.  I've been working for about 5

> years as a systems admin.  I have experience in deploying and

> administering Windows 2000 Pro, Windows 2000 Server, Red Hat Linux,

> Cisco switches, and SuSE Linux.  I've been able to get a jobs based off

> of the experience alone that I have but I'm learning that will only get

> you so far.  I've been debating whether or not to even invest in

> getting an MCSE.  I have looked for jobs online lately and some jobs

> require you to have a CIS degree.  Now sometimes it seems to me that a

> bachelors degree for systems administration seems silly because the CIS

> programs that I've seen center around programming and computing

> concepts, not so much networking and security and OS management.  My

> questions are: Is getting an MCSE worth it?  Do you really need an MCSE

> to get good sys admin jobs?  Also, from your experience, do you really

> need a Bachelors in CIS to get good sys admin jobs?  Anyone in the

> forum an IT manager and do you have a bachelors or just experience and

> certifications?  What kind of credentials do some of the people above

> you have?  Do any sysadmins in this forum have Linux certifications?

> Is it worth it to get Linux certifications also?  I've been looking

> into Security+ certification since it does count as 1 elective credit

> for MCSE?  Anybody have any thoughts or experience with Security+?  WRT

> to salary, I know people may not want to reveal salary info, but do

> MCSEs without bachelors degrees make decent money ($50k+)?

> Sorry for all the questions, thanks for any input on the subject.  I'm

> interested to hear what people's experiences are in the job market.

>

>

>

> --

> ludwigs3rd

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Posted via http://www.mcse.ms

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> View this thread: http://www.mcse.ms/message517391.html

>

>where you are generally working for *smart* people.



ROTFLMAO!



>A computer science degree is almost mandatory these days for a programmer

>and a lot of senior sysadmin/analyst jobs request it also, although

>generally it is just HR bullshit trying to lower the number of applicants so

>ANY degree with the word "Computing" in it will qualify you (unfortunately.)



Very true, and it's their loss if they let one of the 'rare' top

quality talents slip through and end up working for a competitor - ha

ha ha...



>The people who "talk down" certification are generally those who don't have

>it and are unable to cut it in this field anymore.



The certification process has 'talked down' itself. The brain dump

'providers' who must be making a killing are the only winners. For me

the only way the ms certification can get back on track is to change

the format which will make it harder for brain dump vendors the pedal

their wares, as well as 'cheating' in general.; and in doing so, if

getting rid of those who 'are unable to cut it in this field anymore'

is a result, so be it - quality before quantity...



>IT has always been an academic profession, anyone who can't keep up with a

>fairly constant (and endless) study regime best learn this phrase:

>"Would you like fries with that, Sir?"



Absolutely. It's what makes the profession so much fun, well that and

this ng!



Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere <.> wrote in

news:kqqf60lhn7hl2fa6ugliusaotunevusmn7@4ax.com:



> The certification process has 'talked down' itself. The brain dump

> 'providers' who must be making a killing are the only winners. For me

> the only way the ms certification can get back on track is to change

> the format which will make it harder for brain dump vendors the pedal

> their wares, as well as 'cheating' in general.; and in doing so, if

> getting rid of those who 'are unable to cut it in this field anymore'

> is a result, so be it -



Are you suggesting proctored exams? I don't think this is a good idea for

MCP level exams but for top tier exams I agree that there should be a

separate exam that is not just "another exam"



> quality before quantity...

>



I've heard this phrase before 

 

>



Biggie size that will ya?



> Absolutely. It's what makes the profession so much fun, well that and

> this ng!

>



the study? you are a strange animal Sphere! (must be why I enjoy your

posts)



--

Neil

"you'd do what, to who, for how many biscuits?"